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PEP 572 and Future
#1
As many of you have read by now, Guido van Rossum stepped down as the BDFL, partially because of the criticism of PEP 572.

What I don't really understand is, if you as a developer or your team don't like what PEP 572 is offering, why not just ignore it and not use it? Why complain and criticize it?

Secondly, I may be jumping too far ahead but should we be concerned about Python? I'm not saying abandon Python or anything drastic. I just don't want to see my favorite language, and one I'm proud to say I learned on my own, die.
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#2
I don't see Python dying over this. Guido's resignation letter indicates that only two things are really going to change: How PEPs are decided, and who gets to be a core developer. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with reasonable ways to handle those. Really, I think PEPs would be the only one that is an issue. I would expect that the new process will be a bit conservative, in reaction to the acrimony over PEP 572.
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#3
(Jul-15-2018, 12:58 AM)ichabod801 Wrote: I don't see Python dying over this. Guido's resignation letter indicates that only two things are really going to change: How PEPs are decided, and who gets to be a core developer. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with reasonable ways to handle those. Really, I think PEPs would be the only one that is an issue. I would expect that the new process will be a bit conservative, in reaction to the acrimony over PEP 572.

I agree with this, but what about just ignoring the PEP 572 feature? Why can't developers just not use it in there code, rather than criticize it?

No one is forcing the devs to use the assignment expression.
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#4
what about core devs? was there criticism from this group?

and does this all mean that approval of 572 is voided?

i would have liked to use assignment expressions. but i do not like :=. OTOH, i do see value in the operator being other than =. maybe it could have been .=.

i will still use Python.
Tradition is peer pressure from dead people

What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual. Two languages? Bilingual. One language? American.
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#5
(Jul-15-2018, 01:05 AM)svetlanarosemond Wrote: No one is forcing the devs to use the assignment expression.

I don't think this is a realistic statement. First of all, if it becomes part of the language, it will be used in code, and that may be code that the devs have to deal with. Not all of the code you use is your own. Second of all, their bosses may force them to use it. I've worked places with coding style manuals. You can either follow them or have it held against you at your performance review.
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#6
(Jul-15-2018, 03:12 AM)ichabod801 Wrote: I don't think this is a realistic statement. First of all, if it becomes part of the language, it will be used in code, and that may be code that the devs have to deal with. Not all of the code you use is your own. Second of all, their bosses may force them to use it. I've worked places with coding style manuals. You can either follow them or have it held against you at your performance review.

This is why it's good to ask questions. Smile. I never thought of the manager forcing you to use it, dealing with code that doesn't belong to you, and manuals.

Do you believe that the criticism is being blown out of proportion or is it justified?
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#7
(Jul-14-2018, 11:44 PM)svetlanarosemond Wrote: Secondly, I may be jumping too far ahead but should we be concerned about Python? I'm not saying abandon Python or anything drastic. I just don't want to see my favorite language, and one I'm proud to say I learned on my own, die.
I dont think this is a worry you should have to be concerned with. Python is very popular and has a stable base. As long as people are developing the language and people using it, it will never die.
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#8
(Jul-15-2018, 12:51 PM)svetlanarosemond Wrote: Do you believe that the criticism is being blown out of proportion or is it justified?

I don't know, I don't really follow the PEP process. Right now I'm working on code that is meant to be backward compatible, so new features are not really of interest to me. I'll take a peek at them when a tutorial comes out, but that's it. I still haven't used an f-string yet.
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#9
(Jul-14-2018, 11:44 PM)svetlanarosemond Wrote: why not just ignore it and not use it? Why complain and criticize it?
I use Scala at work, and have done so at a couple companies. I like Python and Scala, even though they're very different.

Python is much simpler, and that's often a benefit. I am confident that I can read Python, and teach someone to read any Python fairly quickly. (90%+ of what they're see in two weeks, the other 10% easy to self-teach.)

Scala on the other hand is incredibly complex. Even with a couple years' experience, I still come across code that I have to learn more about the language to understand. For this reason, I have sympathy for people who don't want to add features with the "just don't use it" convention. Conventions are also harder IMO to enforce in non-static languages, like Python (at my current job, we have banned certain Scala features and have tooling in place to prevent its use).

Python is definitely becoming more complex in a way that isn't what I want. I like Python's simplicity, and go to Scala when I need something more. If Python gets as complex as Scala, I'll probably use Scala more; not a lot more the way things are going currently, but that's the trend.
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