Python Forum

This might be a little off topic, but do many professionals recommend students consider dropping out?  I mean, the homework section was probably well-intended.  But for many professionals who either went to college or who have interviewed candidates, I think they have a different opinion on school.  I think young people in school plainly do not understand how difficult homework is while making money with Python coding is very simple (comparing the technical depth of careers versus academic environments).  I tend to think python-forum.io should arbitrarily warn any student that school is unnecessarily difficult and any related degree will likely have no benefit to their career.  It is a hard conversation to have why you were not working.

It doesnt matter what school teaches or does not teach you. In the end, people want to see that paper (degree). 

I cant say much regarding career aspect, as i do it as a hobby. When i was in college for it, the mindset was get from point a to point b in such as method. In the real world it appears you just need to connect the dots, regardless of what method (most of the time). Half the classes were somewhat of a joke to someone who has done a small portion of programming before and is knowledgeable in linux. Those classes you would rather poke your eyeballs out with ice picks from boredom. But hey...some people dont know this stuff! All the stuff you are taught in school you can find on the internet. And most of what i went through was for the absolute computer noob. 

My brother just dropped a second degree for CS due to not wanting to deal with calculus classes. The instructor basically led him to drop the classes due to informing him that its not needed for what he wanted to do. Instead he led towards system admin degree (a non calculus required degree).

the more you learn about the world, the more your programs can deal work effectively with the world.

(Oct-06-2016, 02:04 AM)Johno Wrote: [ -> ]This might be a little off topic, but do many professionals recommend students consider dropping out?  I mean, the homework section was probably well-intended.  But for many professionals who either went to college or who have interviewed candidates, I think they have a different opinion on school.  I think young people in school plainly do not understand how difficult homework is while making money with Python coding is very simple (comparing the technical depth of careers versus academic environments).  I tend to think python-forum.io should arbitrarily warn any student that school is unnecessarily difficult and any related degree will likely have no benefit to their career.  It is a hard conversation to have why you were not working.

There is a school based on that principle.

Yes, you can learn to write code without going to college. But life as a programmer isn't just writing code. It is also about understanding new concepts quickly, or being about to prove to someone (client, management...) that your point of view is right, or being able to express your ideas clearly and understandably (and sometimes, in more than one human language). All things that you learn to do in a formal education context.

If you limit yourself to the easy part (writing code) then there are plenty of people who can do it, so there is an intense competition and potential employers will look for the lowest bidder (often, overseas). And it will be for very boring projects that have already been done a thousand times.

Personal experience: I'm the father of 5th-year student for a MsC in Computer Science. Over the 4 past years, several of his ex-schoolmates dropped out, and some went to the "42" school above. And they are now figuring out that this school is really meant to churn out low-wages programmers. On the other side said 5th year person can do things I've never done, and is already courted by big-name employers.

In addition to potential employers liking to see that 'sheepskin' for it's educational value, they also see it as the candidates ability to commit .  In my youth, a college degree didn't mean much unless you were seeking a management job, in which case it was imperative. Back then, a non-college grad could make a decent wage and receive decent benefits and working for the same company for 30 years or more was more the norm than the exception.  Now it is almost imperative for a young person to have some college education under their belt. Heck, even the military, who's mantra used to be "if it breathes, enlist it" is leaning more towards the college degree and rejecting those without.

So my advice to young people is go to college, no matter how tedious  it might seem, and get that degree.
(also, eat your vegetables)

I went to college (Western Michigan), and got a bachelor's degree in Computer Information Systems.  That's not a CS degree despite appearances, it's a software-oriented degree through the business college, so my opinions might be... different from those who got a "real" CS degree.

I think college is completely worthless with regards to actually learning, and is only useful as a place to get a degree.  And that degree is completely worthless for anything other than showing people you're capable of taking things through to completion.

Because I actually liked the subject matter (when it came to programming), I had already studied previously, which meant classes were literally naptime, or I'd read 15 chapters ahead of whatever the professor was talking about.  Homework was a breeze, because it was stupidly simple (except for when they put inane requirements, such as "do this, but without using for loops!").  Group projects were hilariously easy, and the one time I spent my spring break building an ecommerce website, it was clear that our group was the only one that actually accomplished anything for the project.  Most of the time, I felt like I was one of only a small handful of people that actually should have been getting a degree, as most people just typed things straight out of the book without any comprehension of what it meant.

All that said, I went to college directly after high school.  My experience was that other people in my age range were the worst... students that were 30+ that had taken time off of work specifically to learn more, were the absolute best people in the class (they actually listened, asked relevant questions, and tried hard to understand what they were doing, instead of just trying to "get the homework done").

Some of the things that were actually being taught were just wrong (storing passwords in a database in plaintext?!), with no mention that people shouldn't actually ever do that in practice.  

Which all lead me to my current line of thinking... college is not a place you go to learn how to program.  The best way to learn, is to learn yourself, online.

I definitely would not advocate for students dropping out. You hear stories about drop outs doing well, but that's because it's remarkable. The regular case is not remarkable. You also severely limit yourself by not getting a degree. You can very easily make money with Python doing freelance without a degree, but freelance is so much different than employment.

I used to work for a company with >1 billion in revenue, and I did >200 technical interviews while there. Lots of people from big-name schools were surprisingly bad during those interviews (the only school that reliably pumped out competent students required four four-month stints of job experience). But think about it from the perspective of the people doing the hiring - you already have a huge number of applicants, how can you trim it down and look at a pool of more qualified people? Even if degrees provide only a very small marginal benefit, it's probably worth it, even acknowledging false negatives.

Now on the education bit - there are degrees in "computer science" and "software engineering." I did CS, and it bugged me a lot. Very theoretical, academic, classical (the graphics course teaches algorithms that avoid floating point numbers, since they used to be slower, in spite of the fact that modern graphics cards only do floating point math). Software engineering tends to have some CS but also focus on more practical things. So there's that.

I did find that for my CS degree, in terms of peers especially, there were classes that required programming in spite of being theoretical, and that got a lot of people a lot more programing experience. If you're really self-motivated, they're a huge waste of time since personal projects will help you learn more, but most people just aren't like that. They need more structure. And again, when it comes to employment, there aren't enough of those self-motivated people to go around.

A little bit more about my background... neither of my parents went to college, and neither could help me pay for it. I went on scholarships and loans. Dropping out midway through would have been an incredibly risky idea, given the high probability of a well-paying job straight out of college. If your parents are paying for everything and you can just move back in with them if everything goes to hell, that's great, but it's not an option everyone has. And I'm not saying the option was entirely closed to me, but the risk was certainly higher.

If I had to interview someone who had dropped out, or who didn't even get that educated, I would not have any prejudice. I'm happy to interview them. But I'm not a recruiter, and it's for good reason tough for non-degreed folks to get that far. One of my colleagues interviewed someone without a degree once, and found it was a waste of time. Not because of prejudice, but because the candidate's experience and perspective were extremely narrow. A degree helps broaden that out for many people.

If anyone is considering leaving school (or... skipping) I highly recommend they read or listen to an audiobook for Originals by Adam Grant. Dropping out can be done surprisingly responsibly - you do a Planned Leave of Absence from your university if and only if you think there's an opportunity you'd otherwise miss out on, and leave your options for the future open. If your off-the-beaten-path plan goes well, excellent, but there's often no need for its failure to ruin everything.

Just my 10 cents worth.

Having been a professional programmer myself,
I (quite often actually) attended classes that Had only
one aspect that I was interested in.

Even though I used many of the subjects being taught,
and in many cases knew more about it than the professor,
I always went about it enthusiastically, and almost always learned something
new.

Have an open mind.
Do the assignments enthusiastically, after all If you already
know the material, how long can it take.

You just might learn something new!

After 51 years of programming, I still learn something new every single day.

It's what keeps all my harebrained ideas alive and come to fruition!

Larz60+

I think that the education system kills the creativity, curiosity, the hunger for knowledge. There are programs the teachers fallows, the tests do no pushing you over the books material. Just to test you. There is no challenge. The students came out like bottles from a line. Shiny and equal. May be somewhere there is exceptions from this rule but I didn't see any.

Anyway, the degree is essential. If you want to make rich someone else. I miss a job in the National television. I had the qualification but not a degree.
But it was good for me. I've found a great job which allows me to travel, to work in any place as long as I am connected. But the path was not an easy one. There was moving from one job to another, autocrat bosses. Finally I was sick. I've made a decision what I want and stick to it. I lost a lot of money, time, I lost my sleep. It was hard times. I am grateful for all of that. I've learned a lot. The result? I can cook, I can repair almost everything, I can build a house from the ground up, I can talk in front of hundreds of people and a lot of other skills including managing a small company. I saw a few were bankrupt in front of my eyes.
I can tell that the live itself can teach you all of what you need. If you manage to stay focused on what you want. And learning all the time.

The degree is important for the first impression. But once one has a conversation with you the degree remains in the background. It's a just a starting point.

Quote:I think that the education system kills the creativity, curiosity, the hunger for knowledge

In many schools this is true. There are some exceptions, MIT, RIT, UC Berkley and more,
where experimentation is not only encouraged, but rewarded.